tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post6669779033324701538..comments2023-09-22T06:36:49.235-04:00Comments on Yet Another Philosopher's Blog?!?: Analytic Philosophy and the English Language: Some Data and Some Preliminary ThoughtsGabriele Contessahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-29021351746373344322014-10-31T12:29:12.187-04:002014-10-31T12:29:12.187-04:00Jeff: It's hard to get good numbers, but I wou...Jeff: It's hard to get good numbers, but I would think that there are a lot of philosophy departments around the world and there are a lot of philosophers working in them. (some estimates say around 16,000 higher education institutions in the world and even including 2-year colleges around 4500 in the US alone). Anyway, much of this is beside the point, I think analytic philosophy should be true to its self-image as a cosmopolitan enterprise and achieve a much better representation of the world population (only 8% of which is Anglophone (who's committing the base rate fallacy now? ;-) )) and that if it can't do that without becoming less Anglocentric and more inclusive from a cultural/linguistic point of view. I find it very surprising that this can sound controversial to someGabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-46283499775459027172014-10-31T11:30:46.920-04:002014-10-31T11:30:46.920-04:00thanks! but I'm trying to make a different poi...thanks! but I'm trying to make a different point in my post... Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-89606878363320341242014-10-30T18:40:30.241-04:002014-10-30T18:40:30.241-04:00My main problem with this is that I have no idea w...My main problem with this is that I have no idea what proportion of the profession as a whole speaks English as a first versus a foreign language (hereafter E1L versus EFL). If there was anything about this in the post, I did not find it - I will admit to having skimmed some parts, though, so I'd be grateful if anyone could point out anything I might have missed. Barring that, though, the whole thing seems to be a textbook example of the base rate fallacy.Jeff Heikkinenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856981023882223505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-15135356237758829812014-10-27T18:27:25.862-04:002014-10-27T18:27:25.862-04:00I totally agree, Philipp! In fact, I think it appl...I totally agree, Philipp! In fact, I think it applies to all conferences that aim at being international (e.g. in which there are speakers from both North America and Britain). It seems that every unearned advantage is unfair and to be a native speaker is in this context an unearned advantage and we should try to find ways to make the situation fairer. I do not have some magic formula for doing that but I think it's important to discuss it. (Also, this issue is closely related to other issues such as race in ways that I think are very important to spell out more clearly.) Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-15137769604264143912014-10-27T17:38:46.948-04:002014-10-27T17:38:46.948-04:00Thanks, that's very interesting. It seems to m...Thanks, that's very interesting. It seems to me that some of the debate (e.g. Sara Protasi's post on her facebook page) did not sufficiently distinguish between different forms of "discrimination". I think, for example, that the arguments against all-male conferences (role models, the way it makes philosophy look, esp. to students etc) apply equally to conferences featuring only native speakers, esp. if they take place in countries where English is not an official language. Philipp Blumhttp://philosophie.ch/philipp/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-20283707484537560842014-10-05T15:02:28.238-04:002014-10-05T15:02:28.238-04:00I'll try to remember that but I'm not sure...I'll try to remember that but I'm not sure how it's relevant here. :-) Could you please clarify, John?Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-41930841876909355162014-10-05T14:54:45.085-04:002014-10-05T14:54:45.085-04:00Remember that von Wright (#187) is a Finn.Remember that von Wright (#187) is a Finn.John Emersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12058849885222086640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-85935731077855256542014-10-02T09:55:36.614-04:002014-10-02T09:55:36.614-04:00But it's still a second language. The (admitte...But it's still a second language. The (admittedly sparse) data I've seen suggests that some of the challenges you describe in the post are felt by anyone who isn't native in the language, even if they started speaking it regularly around age 5.Brian Weathersonhttp://brian.weatherson.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-24319220891711051392014-09-30T14:13:50.338-04:002014-09-30T14:13:50.338-04:00sorry! it doesn't seem to work! You gotta love...sorry! it doesn't seem to work! You gotta love blogger!Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-75112265200730247132014-09-30T14:13:17.894-04:002014-09-30T14:13:17.894-04:00That sounds great! Let me try to turn that into a ...That sounds great! Let me try to turn that into a live link <a href="www.mapforthegap.com" rel="nofollow">www.mapforthegap.com</a>Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-3875522500101639572014-09-30T14:12:12.937-04:002014-09-30T14:12:12.937-04:00Sorry! I wasn't thinking of that use of EFL! I...Sorry! I wasn't thinking of that use of EFL! I could have chosen a better acronym :-)Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-37106741934773687682014-09-30T13:49:52.694-04:002014-09-30T13:49:52.694-04:00I'm grateful for this, Gabriele! I had been me...I'm grateful for this, Gabriele! I had been meaning to do some such number-crunching myself, but never got round to it. Let me point out that MAP (Minorities and Philosophy) aims to raise sensitivity about and address under-representation of non-native speakers of English in Anglophone philosophy (I take it it is especially non-native speakers that you have in mind here, although ESL speakers, though perhaps not EFL ones, are arguably not necessarily non-native). We should think of some way to collaborate! PS: MAP's website is www.mapforthegap.com and there is a UK section of MAP which I recently inaugurated and currently direct.Filippo Contesihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05014389528647564695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-75495484592250327122014-09-30T13:49:14.295-04:002014-09-30T13:49:14.295-04:00NB: I realize only now that you use 'EFL' ...NB: I realize only now that you use 'EFL' in a different way from the way that I (and possibly most British people) use it, i.e. to stand for 'English as a Foreign Language'.Filippo Contesihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05014389528647564695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-70347396999897948082014-09-30T12:41:05.647-04:002014-09-30T12:41:05.647-04:00"I venture to say that ESL people will, on th..."I venture to say that ESL people will, on the whole, write better than EFL people. They know properly about sequence of tenses, relative pronouns, etc."<br />- often these things could be the result of ESL people hiring proofreaders. For instance, in my country it's a popular practice to include costs of proofreadering in grant applications, and to pay for a proofreading before sending a paper to the journal for review (and of course, there are companies making good money by providing these things).anon grad efl studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-4945165304281383532014-09-30T10:24:49.212-04:002014-09-30T10:24:49.212-04:00I was fortunate enough to have parents who could a...I was fortunate enough to have parents who could afford and had the foresight to pay for private English lessons. Without that, my English would have been significantly worse. So there is also a huge class component here (but more on this in future posts hopefully)Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-78687900458011996462014-09-30T10:11:57.806-04:002014-09-30T10:11:57.806-04:00Simon: thanks for the comments. I agree we should ...Simon: thanks for the comments. I agree we should distinguish different aspects of linguistic expressions, but I'm afraid I disagree with you on the first two points. Figurative language is very idiomatic and is used differently in different languages, so metaphors that stand in one language fall flat on their face in another (because of different idiomatic associations). As for the second point, maybe things are different in other countries but, believe me, you wouldn't want to have learned your English in an Italian school! :-)Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-53390564989411051362014-09-30T10:04:48.404-04:002014-09-30T10:04:48.404-04:00Sorri, Moti---I haven't been following blogs t...Sorri, Moti---I haven't been following blogs that much lately and missed your post! Looking forward to reading it!Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-16618758968975852382014-09-30T10:04:06.542-04:002014-09-30T10:04:06.542-04:00Thanks for pointing that out! I stand corrected! :...Thanks for pointing that out! I stand corrected! :-) Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-41493198845961001722014-09-30T09:43:16.530-04:002014-09-30T09:43:16.530-04:00This is very interesting and I look forward to rea...This is very interesting and I look forward to reading the further posts on the topic.<br /><br />I do think it’s worth distinguishing different dimensions of quality in writing, since the EFL/ESL distinction works quite differently in them. First, there are matters of style. Is the writing exciting, are there interesting metaphors, does it plot arhythmically, and so on. I suspect that there is no correlation here with the ESL/EFL distinction. A stylish writer in one language will be stylish in another (always supposing a threshold of competence). And there are many dull EFL writers. Secondly, there is the general run of correctness with respect to word-meaning, syntax, morphology, etc. Here, given the nature of language education in (especially) the US and the UK, and given that philosophers who are ESL folks will typically come from good schools in their native countries and have learned English properly (and often, as you Italians, with a large dose of Latin grammar), I venture to say that ESL people will, on the whole, write better than EFL people. They know properly about sequence of tenses, relative pronouns, etc. (Though as you point out, it may take longer for ESL people to produce the text that is, on the whole, better.) Finally, there is a subcategory of mistakes (which I don’t exactly know how to describe) that only ESL people will make. These will occur even in beautifully stylish, and on the whole grammatically-superior-to-EFL productions. I’m thinking of such things as when to use “to” versus “of” in expressions like “capable of” and “able to.” No EFL person would ever write “capable to”. But then, as per my second dimension, no ESL person will ever, ever write such things as “I wish I would have done that” (or worse: “I wish I would of done that”).<br />Simon Evninehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02053101090856006075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-3823261112482488912014-09-30T09:40:56.650-04:002014-09-30T09:40:56.650-04:00Hi Gabriele,
Thanks for writing about this import...Hi Gabriele,<br /><br />Thanks for writing about this important issue. A while back I wrote about this on the Philosophers’ Cocoon: http://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2013/01/non-native-english-speakers-in-philosophy.html<br /><br />I have looked at the representation (or under-representation) of ESL philosophers in TT positions at the so-called “top” PhD programs in the US. Like your findings, mine are discouraging, too.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06442978444189475572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-77545886864794907882014-09-30T06:21:45.631-04:002014-09-30T06:21:45.631-04:00i recommend William Zinnser, On Writing Well.i recommend William Zinnser, On Writing Well.gualtiero piccininihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15204989505074777446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-7634641975364290052014-09-30T06:00:22.450-04:002014-09-30T06:00:22.450-04:00A small point, unlike Conrad, Nabokov was not an E...A small point, unlike Conrad, Nabokov was not an ESL-speaker. Nabokov didn't write in English until 1940, but was trilingual (Russian, French, English).<br />John Collinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-78061689557249801572014-09-29T12:29:57.571-04:002014-09-29T12:29:57.571-04:00The ability to express oneself is, I think, part o...The ability to express oneself is, I think, part of being a good philosopher. The ability to express oneself <\i>in English<> is not. :-) However, English happens to be the language we have chosen as our lingua franca (more on this in a future post!), so, I guess, proficiency in English help us disseminate our ideas more clearly and persuasively and to a broader audience. I would however distinguish between clarity of expression, which seems to be essential to analytic philosophy, from style, which is not essential. Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-25171182931759222702014-09-29T12:14:55.544-04:002014-09-29T12:14:55.544-04:00One question, as someone who struggles with the En...One question, as someone who struggles with the English language:<br />Is the ability to express oneself part of what makes one a good philosopher? Is philosophy expressed better better philosophy, or philosophy which is no better, merely better expresed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5214738437824336150.post-14915971080867662562014-09-29T11:23:53.831-04:002014-09-29T11:23:53.831-04:00Yes, as far as I can see, Sosa seems to be the onl...Yes, as far as I can see, Sosa seems to be the only philosopher whose first language is a Romance language to make it on either list. Also, it's a bit funny to consider philosophers who grew up in India as non-ESL philosophers, since much of the formal education in India is in English and most middle- and upper-class Indians are very proficient in English.Gabriele Contessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607158011908969169noreply@blogger.com